Saswat Blog
All that's Left!
Nov 2004
Hindu Seer XIV- Postscript
21/11/04 23:12 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Memories
Well, I guess the debate around Hindu Seer will not
cease. But it sparked a type of continuation that was
amusing, to say the least. People got polarized, and
fought and most importantly took a side.
It is important to take a side in matters of issues. Some of course said they left the forum in disgust. But in reality, they never did! For, the temptation to defend their side was just so huge.
I shall see when next shall we rejoin in such a conversation. I have some new friends now: Chinmaya and Vulcan for sure! Good to see people from Orissa, staying outside the land, contributing to the ongoing debates.
It is important to take a side in matters of issues. Some of course said they left the forum in disgust. But in reality, they never did! For, the temptation to defend their side was just so huge.
I shall see when next shall we rejoin in such a conversation. I have some new friends now: Chinmaya and Vulcan for sure! Good to see people from Orissa, staying outside the land, contributing to the ongoing debates.
|
Hindu Seer XIII
Well, another attempt by me:
My dear comrades,
One of the major concerns: What kinds of questions are we asking?
None of us who opposed the religious discourses talked anything about "challenge", or any roadmap to "eliminate religions" etc. These are as non-issues as any other rightist rhetoric could be. They were brought up by a person who has left this group now, as conitnuation of a logical fallacy.
If AA's "challenge" be taken seriously, the counter will be something like, "Well, I challenge anyone to convert the entire world to believe in just one God" etc etc.. And here is where we miss the boat. Serious objections by some of us were raised precisely to oppose such kind of talks which served no real purpose. Instead what Chinmaya had brought to notice was an important news of the arrest of an alleged criminal who appeared to be held with esteem by some religious fanatics. That was it. Instead of talking in purely judicial terms and also analyzing the historiography of religious frauds, the self-proclaimed 'theists' took it personally!
I dont see why all these talk about "theist", "pseudo-atheist" etc. And I dont see why someone should even consider any "challenges" posed by a person who left the group because he felt the ones who held contrary views were "barking relentlessly"...Basically by someone who was so intellectually challenged so as to leave the group in a huff after hurling some abuses at people who differed from the mainstream.
If any so-called "challenges to eliminate religions (sic)" are accepted, it will sound like the democrats arguing within the republican framework--dealing with the later's concerns and trying to see how to face redundant challenges.
Seems to me that the issues as seen by Chinmaya or Vulcan or Anup or Sanjib or Saswat are radically different from how they were perceived by Mar, Man, AA or An and all other proclaimed "theists".
There lies the misunderstanding.
The "summery of the whole episode" is as one-sided as it could be, obviously because it has been narrated by someone who anyway belonged to one school than the other. Not just in degree, but in type as well.
Wheras one school is raising questions about the questions, the other is challenging the seekers to supply with answers else to 'stop barking'. Two different molds of thoughts here.
In solidarity,
Saswat
Read More...
My dear comrades,
One of the major concerns: What kinds of questions are we asking?
None of us who opposed the religious discourses talked anything about "challenge", or any roadmap to "eliminate religions" etc. These are as non-issues as any other rightist rhetoric could be. They were brought up by a person who has left this group now, as conitnuation of a logical fallacy.
If AA's "challenge" be taken seriously, the counter will be something like, "Well, I challenge anyone to convert the entire world to believe in just one God" etc etc.. And here is where we miss the boat. Serious objections by some of us were raised precisely to oppose such kind of talks which served no real purpose. Instead what Chinmaya had brought to notice was an important news of the arrest of an alleged criminal who appeared to be held with esteem by some religious fanatics. That was it. Instead of talking in purely judicial terms and also analyzing the historiography of religious frauds, the self-proclaimed 'theists' took it personally!
I dont see why all these talk about "theist", "pseudo-atheist" etc. And I dont see why someone should even consider any "challenges" posed by a person who left the group because he felt the ones who held contrary views were "barking relentlessly"...Basically by someone who was so intellectually challenged so as to leave the group in a huff after hurling some abuses at people who differed from the mainstream.
If any so-called "challenges to eliminate religions (sic)" are accepted, it will sound like the democrats arguing within the republican framework--dealing with the later's concerns and trying to see how to face redundant challenges.
Seems to me that the issues as seen by Chinmaya or Vulcan or Anup or Sanjib or Saswat are radically different from how they were perceived by Mar, Man, AA or An and all other proclaimed "theists".
There lies the misunderstanding.
The "summery of the whole episode" is as one-sided as it could be, obviously because it has been narrated by someone who anyway belonged to one school than the other. Not just in degree, but in type as well.
Wheras one school is raising questions about the questions, the other is challenging the seekers to supply with answers else to 'stop barking'. Two different molds of thoughts here.
In solidarity,
Saswat
Read More...
Bob Dylan is still the Best!
18/11/04 11:08 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
Rolling Stone
has awarded Bob Dylan’s “Like a Rolling Stone” as the
best song of all time!
Click here to get the top 100 song list:
Well what do you all think? Is there a better one?
Check this out... Its not just sheer poetry. Its Bob Dylan!
"You’ve gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you’re gonna have to get used to it
You said you’d never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He’s not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?"
Click here to get the top 100 song list:
Well what do you all think? Is there a better one?
Check this out... Its not just sheer poetry. Its Bob Dylan!
"You’ve gone to the finest school all right, Miss Lonely
But you know you only used to get juiced in it
And nobody has ever taught you how to live on the street
And now you find out you’re gonna have to get used to it
You said you’d never compromise
With the mystery tramp, but now you realize
He’s not selling any alibis
As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And ask him do you want to make a deal?
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be on your own
With no direction home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone?"
Hindu Seer XII
16/11/04 07:05 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
Chinmaya gives it back to the AA:
Dear AA Babu,
Cool down. World is beautiful, and so your posts and everythings.
Have I asked you anything ? What was the need of answering so rudely to a news ?
Name it an ugly trick, whatever you please.You are entitled to judge people,and their acts in your own way.Who cares ? Hope, M bhai, Mark Bhaina, An bhaina would have understood the value of *excuse* in the proper context.
Do not know, if you do not prefer to use harsh words to others .A mail with caps and the conents in it might be mere deception to all of us.For reference, read your this mail one once more.
I asked you do not take things to heart, its because a news head line made you unnecessarily so reactive and irritated. If that was a trickery,take the burden of the discussion to your home,die with anguish and heartattack.I do not bother.
There was a smiley after that statement. Now, I am sure you lack the etiquette of conversation, or severely suffering with some kind of complex.Anyway, thats your problem.But,please, do not inflict others with that.
Enough; crap minded fellow, idiocy,burdens on society,and ..., what not ? Hello, who are you to fix limits for others, what one can do, or not ? Enlighten fellow, Why do not you sprinkle your knowldege over the poor people ?
Whenever we claimed ourselves atheists,pseduo whatever ?
Beg excuses, its an ugly tricekry.Huh. AA Babu, what more I should write ?
For rest of the things, barkings and others..you do not deserve a reply.
No sorry, No excuse this time.I do not think you deserve
it too.
Be happy.
Hindu Seer XI
My reply to a previous post:
Dear Brother Sar
I wish you could have shown similar level of sensitivity to adjectives in mails
directed at fellow members of this group! There were many more crude languages
used to refer to many of us (just for one example we were "barking"!)
Just because someone (who is obviously not part of this group) is proclaimed
religious, even though the same person is accused of highest criminal charges,
that became so personal?
I am sorry if my calling a guy a guy hurt some people. I should have called him
an "accused" or a "suspect" instead. But why should one suspect be addressed
better than any other? The police calls all names when it comes to a
suspect--you know the swears. But when it comes to someone is an influential
person and most likely can misuse his/her power, why this "plain bias"?
By the way, I am not firing up anything. I guess the reports are out and the
prime suspect (aka sankaracharya) is in judicial custody. His bail application
has been adjourned. The news is out there on the wall. I am not instrumental in
firing up anything. Every person involved in any way in a case of murder ought
to be treated in the same way as any other. Clearly this accused is on a higher
platform now, unfortunately. The police will not be kicking his ass to get the
answers out. Wont be treating him with third degree methods, would not be
spitting on his face or burning his cheeks with cigarette butts and wont be
swearing in choicest abuses questioning the parentage or sexual impotencies.
Just for the records I have witnessed the police doing all this and much more
even in case of people who have dared to steal bicycles or not cooperated in
giving bribes when demanded. Clearly there is a "plain bias".
We know of this judiciary system where in name of Tada or Poto we have caged
thousands of innocent people for no charges at all. People who have not seen the
face of the court since the time they are in jail. Not allowed to appeal for a
public lawyer or request for release. This accused who HAS been charged with
murder already has been allowed to move court!!! Clearly there is a "plain
bias".
To be the devil's advocate, the dangerous communalists Singhals and Tagodias
have joined the fray. Singhal compares this arrest with Somnath Temple
destruction! Clearly the politics and religions are now mixed up to "fire up"
issues. and the violent crusaders of peace, the trishul-bearing kar sevaks are
already on the street- yes making us--people like Sanjib or me--ashamed of being
called Indian--to see that representation of our country in name of religious
intolerance of a superstitious supremacist group. the non-violent, peacenik,
internationalist India has been reduced to a communal violent playground for
religious fanatics.
And I am not the one to fire up anything.
Clearly its a vibrant case to debate on. Chinmaya did a favor on all of us by
bringing in the article to our attention (not that it would have eventually
escaped, but most us would may have preferred to ignore it...who knows? Going by
P babu's mail, three regular contributors have already left the group! I
did not leave the group when they were discussing religious texts--if it is out
of disgust that the religious seer has been arrested and they refuse to be
identified as religious anymore and have trouble in being treated so, its nice
and they are more than welcome to be back. All of us realize our fundamental
fallacies at many junctures of life, anyway). And we are merely discussing the
pros and cons of such treatments to 'seers'. We are not alone. The whole of
India is discussing. Media are editorializing. People are asking pertinent
questions.
One of the questions of course is if a goonda could be a sankaracharya. Bhai
Sar, if you can go so far as to guarantee that its impossible, I at least am
of some opinion that it could be true. In the past and present we have seen all
mob violences in the name of religion. All those thousands of people have given
up their lives under one instruction of religious leaders. When the whole of
Mumbai was burning (just to cite one example of event that happened during my
lifetime), and many parts were being 'fired up' many people were charged with
being goondas. And goondas they were. those preachers of religious goods.
including advani who later most ironically accepted to become home minister when
charges were piled up against him of inciting communal violence.
We all clearly know of this sankaracharya's connection with right-wing politics.
What is there to be so sacred about him?
Biased I am, Sar, because I cannot afford to be neutral or objective or
unbiased -whatever that means and if thats possible in any way. Its time to take
a side. To take side either of the exploiting politicians who use religions to
their advantage and even nurture chances of getting away with mass murders and
communal clashes, or to take side of the people who have been taken for a ride
and who have potentials to question the blind beliefs.
We all have been taken for rides throughout. Sometimes by the founding fathers
of the nation (look at that holy cow business in the directive principles of
state policy. will we have any more tolerance for chicken or goat or pig as we
have for cow? to respect whom? Hindu country or secular country --even after the
late 70's when we got ourselves the secular tag), sometimes by the families and
social institutions (look at the widespread same-caste marriages, and the whole
thread ceremony stuffs--to prove what--as national geographic talks of, to quote
San--that we are born unequal?) and all the lies that our teachers told us
through the history of peace and glory and the golden age of indian culture
(sic).
'Tis time we questioned. San has sent an extremely insightful mail drawing
from his caste experiences. That should do more than good for all of us to ask
our conscience to examine if we have asked the right questions? have we
questioned the systems of exploitation founded on religious beliefs? what do we
owe to the generations of indigenous people for having perpetuated the class and
caste war on them for centuries. what can we give back? to seek forgiveness?
instead we still enjoy the privilege of belonging to a mainstream religion to
address issues from our narrowed lenses. to still wonder why saswat thinks a
sankaracharya could be a goonda. instead of thinking of all the crimes that have
been committed in the land of ours in the name of our religion? millions dead so
far, certainly, not in quest to create something novel, or struggling in a
revolution to feed every hungry child. millions have been condemned to death by
religious preachers by causing communal riots since the last sixty years. and
what have we got here? the leader of the pack is still around. sounds crazy. but
we should have arrested all those spokesmen and women of right wing politics who
have been instrumental in everything communal much before. the charge of one
sole murder was much belated.
Dear brother Sar, I am not here to offend anyone's feelings. That's the
least of the goals. But it so happens that in airing one's own perspectives,
there will be many others who will stand a chance of being offended. I have
never taken offense at the religious discourses in this group despite having
strong feeling about the irrelevance of those talks in face of the fact that
Orissa faces problems and questions of different types. No one really can help
if a section of hindus felt bad that the seer was arrested. He will be released
of course. Because of his clout. And some hindus will be dancing once again.
Like they did in gujarat, like the way they do in ayodhya or nearer home when
they cheered for dara singh.
That dance sucks.
With due respect
Saswat
_____
Follows a right mail. And explains why Chinmaya did not need to have been polite. But good he was. Who wants a riot?
This one is from another one threatening to leave the forum.
Dear Brother Sar
I wish you could have shown similar level of sensitivity to adjectives in mails
directed at fellow members of this group! There were many more crude languages
used to refer to many of us (just for one example we were "barking"!)
Just because someone (who is obviously not part of this group) is proclaimed
religious, even though the same person is accused of highest criminal charges,
that became so personal?
I am sorry if my calling a guy a guy hurt some people. I should have called him
an "accused" or a "suspect" instead. But why should one suspect be addressed
better than any other? The police calls all names when it comes to a
suspect--you know the swears. But when it comes to someone is an influential
person and most likely can misuse his/her power, why this "plain bias"?
By the way, I am not firing up anything. I guess the reports are out and the
prime suspect (aka sankaracharya) is in judicial custody. His bail application
has been adjourned. The news is out there on the wall. I am not instrumental in
firing up anything. Every person involved in any way in a case of murder ought
to be treated in the same way as any other. Clearly this accused is on a higher
platform now, unfortunately. The police will not be kicking his ass to get the
answers out. Wont be treating him with third degree methods, would not be
spitting on his face or burning his cheeks with cigarette butts and wont be
swearing in choicest abuses questioning the parentage or sexual impotencies.
Just for the records I have witnessed the police doing all this and much more
even in case of people who have dared to steal bicycles or not cooperated in
giving bribes when demanded. Clearly there is a "plain bias".
We know of this judiciary system where in name of Tada or Poto we have caged
thousands of innocent people for no charges at all. People who have not seen the
face of the court since the time they are in jail. Not allowed to appeal for a
public lawyer or request for release. This accused who HAS been charged with
murder already has been allowed to move court!!! Clearly there is a "plain
bias".
To be the devil's advocate, the dangerous communalists Singhals and Tagodias
have joined the fray. Singhal compares this arrest with Somnath Temple
destruction! Clearly the politics and religions are now mixed up to "fire up"
issues. and the violent crusaders of peace, the trishul-bearing kar sevaks are
already on the street- yes making us--people like Sanjib or me--ashamed of being
called Indian--to see that representation of our country in name of religious
intolerance of a superstitious supremacist group. the non-violent, peacenik,
internationalist India has been reduced to a communal violent playground for
religious fanatics.
And I am not the one to fire up anything.
Clearly its a vibrant case to debate on. Chinmaya did a favor on all of us by
bringing in the article to our attention (not that it would have eventually
escaped, but most us would may have preferred to ignore it...who knows? Going by
P babu's mail, three regular contributors have already left the group! I
did not leave the group when they were discussing religious texts--if it is out
of disgust that the religious seer has been arrested and they refuse to be
identified as religious anymore and have trouble in being treated so, its nice
and they are more than welcome to be back. All of us realize our fundamental
fallacies at many junctures of life, anyway). And we are merely discussing the
pros and cons of such treatments to 'seers'. We are not alone. The whole of
India is discussing. Media are editorializing. People are asking pertinent
questions.
One of the questions of course is if a goonda could be a sankaracharya. Bhai
Sar, if you can go so far as to guarantee that its impossible, I at least am
of some opinion that it could be true. In the past and present we have seen all
mob violences in the name of religion. All those thousands of people have given
up their lives under one instruction of religious leaders. When the whole of
Mumbai was burning (just to cite one example of event that happened during my
lifetime), and many parts were being 'fired up' many people were charged with
being goondas. And goondas they were. those preachers of religious goods.
including advani who later most ironically accepted to become home minister when
charges were piled up against him of inciting communal violence.
We all clearly know of this sankaracharya's connection with right-wing politics.
What is there to be so sacred about him?
Biased I am, Sar, because I cannot afford to be neutral or objective or
unbiased -whatever that means and if thats possible in any way. Its time to take
a side. To take side either of the exploiting politicians who use religions to
their advantage and even nurture chances of getting away with mass murders and
communal clashes, or to take side of the people who have been taken for a ride
and who have potentials to question the blind beliefs.
We all have been taken for rides throughout. Sometimes by the founding fathers
of the nation (look at that holy cow business in the directive principles of
state policy. will we have any more tolerance for chicken or goat or pig as we
have for cow? to respect whom? Hindu country or secular country --even after the
late 70's when we got ourselves the secular tag), sometimes by the families and
social institutions (look at the widespread same-caste marriages, and the whole
thread ceremony stuffs--to prove what--as national geographic talks of, to quote
San--that we are born unequal?) and all the lies that our teachers told us
through the history of peace and glory and the golden age of indian culture
(sic).
'Tis time we questioned. San has sent an extremely insightful mail drawing
from his caste experiences. That should do more than good for all of us to ask
our conscience to examine if we have asked the right questions? have we
questioned the systems of exploitation founded on religious beliefs? what do we
owe to the generations of indigenous people for having perpetuated the class and
caste war on them for centuries. what can we give back? to seek forgiveness?
instead we still enjoy the privilege of belonging to a mainstream religion to
address issues from our narrowed lenses. to still wonder why saswat thinks a
sankaracharya could be a goonda. instead of thinking of all the crimes that have
been committed in the land of ours in the name of our religion? millions dead so
far, certainly, not in quest to create something novel, or struggling in a
revolution to feed every hungry child. millions have been condemned to death by
religious preachers by causing communal riots since the last sixty years. and
what have we got here? the leader of the pack is still around. sounds crazy. but
we should have arrested all those spokesmen and women of right wing politics who
have been instrumental in everything communal much before. the charge of one
sole murder was much belated.
Dear brother Sar, I am not here to offend anyone's feelings. That's the
least of the goals. But it so happens that in airing one's own perspectives,
there will be many others who will stand a chance of being offended. I have
never taken offense at the religious discourses in this group despite having
strong feeling about the irrelevance of those talks in face of the fact that
Orissa faces problems and questions of different types. No one really can help
if a section of hindus felt bad that the seer was arrested. He will be released
of course. Because of his clout. And some hindus will be dancing once again.
Like they did in gujarat, like the way they do in ayodhya or nearer home when
they cheered for dara singh.
That dance sucks.
With due respect
Saswat
_____
Follows a right mail. And explains why Chinmaya did not need to have been polite. But good he was. Who wants a riot?
This one is from another one threatening to leave the forum.
UGLY TRICKS OF PREUDO-ATHEISTS
------------------------------
The above statement asking for pardon from Chinmay has been repeated
in past several times - to M Babu to Ma Babu, to
An... He writes absurd stuff, illogical arguments; and then he
writes "I am sorry; I should have understood it; I am happy to be
enlightened..."
Besides, he poses a question, "why do you take things so seriously
by heart?" as he questioned the same to me recently.
These "poor people" do NOT take anything seriously by heart; that is
why all the mess. If we are not serious about what we speak, what
are we going to achieve? If you have to make light amusement, do so
in your own circle at a Tea-shop; not to some serious discussions. I
am against use of harsh words, but these people forced me to do so.
Plainly, these people can do nothing but question some dogma without
understanding or without trying to understand. Thus, they do not get
any benefit, nor does the society. Besides, this apathy does no
benefit to people like M Babu or Ma Babu either!
These are "psuedo-atheists". Because, an atheist is rational, and
does huge contributions to the society. These crap-minded fellows
are nothing but burden on the society just because of their
irrational idiocy. that's it.
Sanjib, in past I have explained several rationales in religion;
read my postings before branding me as someone blindly following
religion.
Saswat, I called your group "poor" not in terms of economy; economy
playes no role in intellectual discussions. I called your group poor
simply because you are poor in rational, logical understanding. And,
you understood economy! What a disgrace are you to such forum!
I know that you pseudo-atheists have no ability to do anthing except
barking. That is why none of you came forward in proposing a roadmap
to eliminate religion. If you are so much against it, why not remove
it? Who does your barking benefit?
I know: You cannot propose a roadmap nor can you execute it because
(i) you have no ability to do so; and (ii) religion is just.
Good bye. I wish you all safe opportunity of relentless barking.
Good Bye,
AA
Hindu Seer X
15/11/04 09:51 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
The professor declares he is out. He claims other
wise people have also left the forum in disgust. In
his own words:
It is the nature of some people to derive sadistic pleasures by asking
absurd questions, while they already know the answers. In this regard,
I have decided to leave the forum for a few of you who will have a
chance to attack Hinduism from every aspect. M babu is already out,
and so is AA babu. I am signing off from the group too because my
orthodox mind may instill evil in the young minds. I tried to be simple
but my emotions and learnings are too damaging. It was a free forum and
it would be unwise to be with the great minds. Before I leave, I would
like to tell you only thing, which you may find wrong. Read More...
Hindu Seer IX
I reply to AA's previous hurlings:
"These poor people"--referring to me and Chinmaya!
I sure am a poor person. But in my defense, duplicate posting was not
intentional. If it hurts to see the same mail twice, solution is clear: one just
has the option to delete the mails than to ridicule my economic status.
For clarification, I am not in IIT Mumbai. Secondly, I was using the outlook
express to send the mail. It went straight to the outbox. Hence used the webmail
to send the same. It must have landed twice. I apologize for that.
And as for the other adjectives, they are interesting too. Not surprising,
again.
When thousands of poor folks serve inhuman and indefinite jail terms for
sometime stealing money or other times drinking and swearing, and tribal women
rising against the existing systems getting raped inside the prison walls, its a
sane judicial system. When a sankaracharya (by the way i never said this guy was
any magician--magic gurus have at least some amusement values- so that whole
thing about saswat has to "know" before pointing fingers etc does not hold
relevance) having says in politics (proven fact) and charged with MURDER (which
ordinary suspect is given that kind of publicity anyway? this man is clearly
treated above the rest of us ordinary folks for some serious charge as this) is
arrested, it becomes "behavioural discripancy and "andhatwa".
And the 'holier than thou' principle as mentioned in the last paragraph of mr
acharya's mail is interesting. is there some kind of a warranty that no goonda
can be a sankaracharya? that hindu stuff is unlike the western history. how
blindly deterministic can we still get???
___
Chinmaya in solidarity with Vulcan:
___
Sanjib comes forward:
With due respect, you and others(which includes my father and mother
and other elders)just follow religion blindly. There is nothing
wrong to have faith in the superpower..But I have serious issues of
the way religion is practiced in India.
Still in India you decide the right to enter the temple based on
your caste and social status. If you have more money you get special
privileges in Jaganath temple..and our religion is still
exclusionary. Our old folks just DON'T get it. While trying to
respect our elders and not interested to rock the boat..we
youngsters still follow caste system in choosing our partners. We
talk about racism in US, but in India we have caste system that is
even worse. You might say why I am talking about caste system,
instead of religion. Dear friends that is engraved in the way our
religion is practiced.
National Geographic quotes " To be born Hindu in India is to enter
the caste system, one of the world's longest surviving forms of
social stratification. Embedded in Indian culture for past 1500
years, the caste system follows a basic precept:All men are created
unequal" I AM ASHAMED.
Many hundred years ago when galileo said earth goes around the sun,
he was ostracized..But the Protestant sect of Christianity was born.
I can speak of myself..I am not anti-religion..But I am certainly
against the way religion is practiced in India. The first thing we
need to be doing is challenging the caste system by marrying
someone who is from a higher/lower caste. Then boycotting temples,
who do not allow admissions based on birth. I have boycotted
Jagannath temple in Puri. The first step is to incorporate modern
outlook and values in your own life. Then influencing others.
Caste system and the distorted form of practice of Hinduism is more
than couple of thousands years old. The first thing we can do is
change ourselves. Then we try to influence school teachers and
others. Realistically speaking it won't be eradicated in my
lifetime.But it is certainly worth a try.
Thanks,
Sanjib
"These poor people"--referring to me and Chinmaya!
I sure am a poor person. But in my defense, duplicate posting was not
intentional. If it hurts to see the same mail twice, solution is clear: one just
has the option to delete the mails than to ridicule my economic status.
For clarification, I am not in IIT Mumbai. Secondly, I was using the outlook
express to send the mail. It went straight to the outbox. Hence used the webmail
to send the same. It must have landed twice. I apologize for that.
And as for the other adjectives, they are interesting too. Not surprising,
again.
When thousands of poor folks serve inhuman and indefinite jail terms for
sometime stealing money or other times drinking and swearing, and tribal women
rising against the existing systems getting raped inside the prison walls, its a
sane judicial system. When a sankaracharya (by the way i never said this guy was
any magician--magic gurus have at least some amusement values- so that whole
thing about saswat has to "know" before pointing fingers etc does not hold
relevance) having says in politics (proven fact) and charged with MURDER (which
ordinary suspect is given that kind of publicity anyway? this man is clearly
treated above the rest of us ordinary folks for some serious charge as this) is
arrested, it becomes "behavioural discripancy and "andhatwa".
And the 'holier than thou' principle as mentioned in the last paragraph of mr
acharya's mail is interesting. is there some kind of a warranty that no goonda
can be a sankaracharya? that hindu stuff is unlike the western history. how
blindly deterministic can we still get???
___
Chinmaya in solidarity with Vulcan:
Vulcano Bhai,
Yeah, your logic seems true to certain extent.
"Enviornment" plays a dominant role in controlling ones behavarial pattern, apart from ones genetical make up, and food habbits.
All the emotional outbrusts are mere defense mechanisms because of ones deep love,tendentious approach towards a person/system/cause.Nothing_ unnatural_in_it.It's sometimes hard to digest the fact, even we understand the legal aspect of a problem.Our deep association with religion from the very childhood days have made us to think so. We have seen our mothers shedding their tears infront of the idols every dawn,and dusk for our well being.We are told hundreds/thousands of stories from Prahallad, Dhruva to Sudama etc by our parents/teachers, to give a first hand experience of religion,we are manytime forced to beleive the badtimes of our enemy is because of divine punishment. The influence of early childhood days experiences of religion/god has made an everlasting impression in our minds. Even today, the twilights reminds me the evening of village temple, the eye subconsciously goes on searching for a supreme soul to take to the realm of eternal peace and bliss. Fairs, festivals, gatherings, rituals with so much of things, we are associated with religions from the very day of our presence on the earth;Its not only difficult, but almost impossible to make oneself free from those *comfort* experiences.
The people who are born with sliver spoons, who has never confronted difficulties all alone in their life, or even never being privileged to be empathetic with the good/bad times of their fellow beings, a little interruption in their usual life lead them straightly near to GOD/god-man, religion etc.(I do not inlcude here those people who make mockery of religions,and exploits mass for their own benfits). We must understand, the support systems that religion has provided to them.
Discussing with the persons, who have killed their rationalities, logic being overpossesive of their thoughts, makes no sense really.
And yeah, whats the problem if some people are branded anti-religious ? My conscience says, there must be an anti-religious God to support them :=)
With Regards !
Chinmaya ...
___
Sanjib comes forward:
With due respect, you and others(which includes my father and mother
and other elders)just follow religion blindly. There is nothing
wrong to have faith in the superpower..But I have serious issues of
the way religion is practiced in India.
Still in India you decide the right to enter the temple based on
your caste and social status. If you have more money you get special
privileges in Jaganath temple..and our religion is still
exclusionary. Our old folks just DON'T get it. While trying to
respect our elders and not interested to rock the boat..we
youngsters still follow caste system in choosing our partners. We
talk about racism in US, but in India we have caste system that is
even worse. You might say why I am talking about caste system,
instead of religion. Dear friends that is engraved in the way our
religion is practiced.
National Geographic quotes " To be born Hindu in India is to enter
the caste system, one of the world's longest surviving forms of
social stratification. Embedded in Indian culture for past 1500
years, the caste system follows a basic precept:All men are created
unequal" I AM ASHAMED.
Many hundred years ago when galileo said earth goes around the sun,
he was ostracized..But the Protestant sect of Christianity was born.
I can speak of myself..I am not anti-religion..But I am certainly
against the way religion is practiced in India. The first thing we
need to be doing is challenging the caste system by marrying
someone who is from a higher/lower caste. Then boycotting temples,
who do not allow admissions based on birth. I have boycotted
Jagannath temple in Puri. The first step is to incorporate modern
outlook and values in your own life. Then influencing others.
Caste system and the distorted form of practice of Hinduism is more
than couple of thousands years old. The first thing we can do is
change ourselves. Then we try to influence school teachers and
others. Realistically speaking it won't be eradicated in my
lifetime.But it is certainly worth a try.
Thanks,
Sanjib
Hindu Seer VIII
13/11/04 19:17 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
Friend Ashrujit corrects the old guard:
Respected AA,
Any messages in CAPS is considering shouting. Please refer to the
netiquettes and email etiquette.
Respectfully, Ashrujit
___
Another one for the old gurard...this one is from Chinmaya
Dear Sir,
It seems, you have taken the discussion to your heart bit intensly.Thats not at all needed.Was the caps post a typo, or intentional ?
No social change takes place over night.With a road map, we can not bring about a change in a stipulated time period.This is a chimerical thought.
All that you are naming puking of venom is the doubt of the confused young minds regarding spirituality, and organised religion.
As like the religious talk in the forum goes without opposition, same must go with an anti-religious stand too.
Can we ask one to keep quiet, who speaks of religion ?
Extirpating religion should not be ones target, becoz its a vastly un-understood subject. A little shift in our belief structure may enhance its utility.
With Regards !
Sincerely yours
Chinmaya .. Read More...
Respected AA,
Any messages in CAPS is considering shouting. Please refer to the
netiquettes and email etiquette.
Respectfully, Ashrujit
___
Another one for the old gurard...this one is from Chinmaya
Dear Sir,
It seems, you have taken the discussion to your heart bit intensly.Thats not at all needed.Was the caps post a typo, or intentional ?
No social change takes place over night.With a road map, we can not bring about a change in a stipulated time period.This is a chimerical thought.
All that you are naming puking of venom is the doubt of the confused young minds regarding spirituality, and organised religion.
As like the religious talk in the forum goes without opposition, same must go with an anti-religious stand too.
Can we ask one to keep quiet, who speaks of religion ?
Extirpating religion should not be ones target, becoz its a vastly un-understood subject. A little shift in our belief structure may enhance its utility.
With Regards !
Sincerely yours
Chinmaya .. Read More...
Hindu Seer VII
13/11/04 17:56 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
The letter says it all:
And from a professor who is sure he does not learn from others:
Hi anti-religious youths (Vulcan, Saswat, Anup, Chinmay,...,...)
There is absolutely no benefit by your vomitting venoms in this
forum. Neither it will help your cause nor will it lessen my pro-
religious stand; nor will it affect millions unconcerned with your
venoms.
So, here is my challenge to all of you:
ALL OF YOU JOIN YOUR HANDS AND PROPOSE/EXECUTE A ROAD-MAP TO
ELIMINATE RELIGION FROM HUMAN MIND; AT LEAST FROM INDIANS. IF YOU
CANNOT, THEN STOP VOMITTING POISON.
IF YOU PROPOSE A ROADMAP AND CONVINCE ME IN YOUR CAUSE, I WILL BE
THE HAPPIEST TO JOIN HANDS WITH YOU.
However, be sure that I am not to be challenged for anything, for I
have not opposed any of existing religious concepts or establishment.
SO, ERADICATE RELIGION, OR ELSE KEEP QUIET. DONT BARK.
AA
And from a professor who is sure he does not learn from others:
Dear friends,
After reading all the wonderful postings on how
idiotic are the theists, I was wondering if I am a
Theist or an Atheist? I do not see any more
literature available either from the East or West; on
theism or atheism that has escaped my small mind.
After careful thinking, considering every experience
in my life, I have decided to be a theist. As
expected from any other human being (created by God),
my knowledge is finite and that is the reason it would
be impossible on my part to clash with the great minds
who do not believe in 'theism'. The formidable
intellects of the scientific minds, from Claudius
Ptolemy to Albert Einstein; religious minds, from
Zoarathustra to Vivekananda; and atheists, from
Charvakas to Bertrand Russell have added sparks in the
lives of many intellectuals of the present day world
and in history.
I feel fortunate that I possess fragments of such
sparks in my trillions and trillions of memory cells,
either conferred by my ancestors DNA or by chance.
Therefore, it would be unwise on my part to enter into
debates with people who are confused about their own
identities, let alone the basic principles of nature.
Long time back, in some context, I had stated that I
was an atheist when I was young. Things have changed
since I became a father and held my children in my
arms. I had prayed when the little helpless creatures
became sick. I had cried when they cried in pain.
But, becoming an atheist just because I am fortunate
to have a decent living in America, drive a used car,
and has a secure job? No way!
I would rather be an idiot and a theist, perhaps a
preacher too! To fit the last definition, I need to
learn more of the stuff called religion and science.
This would benefit some, rather than the harm that I
may cause boasting that 'I am intelligent' while my
brain is a store house of pumped up by hormones rather
than pure knowledge.
If anyone is interested to be an atheist, my
suggestion will be to become one like Neitzsche or
Walter Kaufmann. Educated people should not waste
their lives by making a profession out of the
idiosyncracies of materialism.
With regards,
MP
Hindu Seer VI
13/11/04 15:24 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
As expected, the old guard stood up! How dare two
young non-conformists? But whoa...so much passion to
defend a person who had no place to be in the seat of
crime, preaching as he has been of religious sermons?
Or was it because of this that he needed to have
committed the crimes being alleged?
Well, we have an advocate here:
Well, we have an advocate here:
I have a question to make:
Why did Chinmaya send this message twice, and importantly, with two
different subjects?
Likewise, why did Saswat send the response twice?
Do these poor people think that the gravity of the matter should be
better conveyed by the number of responses they post?
Well, I think IIT Mumbai is not as poor as my home town Varanasi is
(where it requires to click the "send" botton several times to send
a message; for most of the times it times out), as far as internet
is concerned. Thus, the above mentioned duplication is essentially
intentional. Then, what psychology can be behind such behaviour?
Needless to say, such a psychology these days has gripped most of
the Indian intelligentsia. For example, a few weeks ago a Karnataka
court and the state police enacted a drama: framing charge-sheet
against Uma Bharti, ordering her arrest, and backtracking afterwards!
My question is: why this drama? Was the judiciary/police efficient
enough to ascertain that Uma was innocent, that too within a couple
of days of her surrender? If yes, how come a court has again invoked
the case recently?
The root behind all the above behavioural discripancy is "andhatwa",
blindness! That is, Inability to know the truth, lack of patience to
investigate a fact, and hurriedness to show/tell something to the
people around - however misleading and disastrous may that be.
My point is: no Uma or Sankaracharya is above the law, and law
should take its route. But, while arresting someone, are you sure
enough that that someone is indeed guilty? Why cannot such actions
wait till completion of intensive investigation? In the above case,
a Chief Minister had to concede the chair, and much more political
chaos took place. Why? No satisfactory answer to this question,
because Karnataka government withdrew the case. Then, who will
compensate the personal and public trauma that the lady sufferred,
who will compensate for/undo the political turmoil (which had had
bearing on the state administration)?
Now, if the Sankarachaeya is released as was Uma, who will
compensate for the defame he was forced to face? Who will compensate
for the mass unrest that this act caused in the mind of millions of
Indians?
Nothing wrong in the referred action of TN police if he is found
guilty. But if he is upheld innocent, this blind trend in India will
turn too devastating for the common citizen to breath some air.
I personally think it is extremely unlikely that Swami Jayendra
Saraswati is involved in a murder. Because, a Sankaracharya is no
Pope who could order an "Albigensian Massacre" and still be the
highest religious leader of the World; I hope smart guys like
Chinmay, Saswat, Vulcan etc know what it (Albigensian Massacre) was.
Neither a Sankaracharya is a magic Guru (Saswat needs to "know"
before pointing a finger) nor any goonda can become a Sankaracharya!
Unlike the western churches, Indian Religious establishments (not
the fake Ashramas; one has to "know" the difference between myriads
others and the "dhAma") are unknown to be involved in sodomy, child
abuse, murder etc.-- AA
Hindu Seer V
13/11/04 14:52 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
One more from the right:
Following this, Anup surely has a point:
Why such an insecurity ? Whats the need to prove one's pshychology,
one's behaviour ? We have to see, if a point can be worth taken, or
not.
I have been observing the posts in the group silently since a long
days, what puzzles me the contumacies and unkind approach we
displayed towards the thoughts we never like to have.By labelling
people with the brand of arrogant, atheist, intentional,smart etc,
are not we trying to supress their views.
I am broken with this kind of news; a highest spiritual maestro is
undergoing a criminal charge.That is not though quite uncommon.We
have witnessed many issues of such kinds.Religius based things have
seen so much of bloodshed, and violence.Judiciary deals with the
common people, and we need not worry as to nothing is going to
happen with people of the highest kind.
Your concern for the traumatised experience of a convicted is worth
considering.Have you ever given a thought to hunderds of innocent
poor souls who are many times proved guilty and punished for none of
their mistakes ? Law can not take it own course.By then, it would
have generated so much of sympathiser, and preachers ? Who will/can
the punish the head of a family ?
I am baffled too. Where is the place of a spiritual elevated person
in politics.Politics is a mind boggling game, and its connection
with religion is again dangerous.Both the way, they sweep away mind.
Its not at all against any religion. Nothing to feel bad, or
overpossesive. Its my own view.
It indeed makes me think "It hapens only in India"; I dont know how many of us___
have that HUGE confidence on our Law; Had it happened with a Pope or a Muslim
Cleric, it wld have been impossible to arrest him. Secondly the Sankaracharya is
not going to fled anywhere; so where is the utility of arresting him? Thirdly,
we should think N-times before we question these ppl called Sankaracharya; these
are not so simply selected to become the head of a "pith"; Let Chinmaya and Jena
bAbu try to become one; they will feel the metamorphosis happening; I tell of my
experience; when I take simple boiled food for few days I feel so serene; and
these ppl have been trained through the life;
The problem in Hinduism is too obvious; Some painter paints nude pictures of our
gods and goddesses; we remain silent and feel that we are logical; I dont know
how ligical is such logic;
Bal Thakrey just asked the same painter to paint the most handsome guy and put
best cloathes and jewelleries and just name it as "allAh"; could he do it,
rather wld he dare to do it??
best regards, A
Following this, Anup surely has a point:
Why such an insecurity ? Whats the need to prove one's pshychology,
one's behaviour ? We have to see, if a point can be worth taken, or
not.
I have been observing the posts in the group silently since a long
days, what puzzles me the contumacies and unkind approach we
displayed towards the thoughts we never like to have.By labelling
people with the brand of arrogant, atheist, intentional,smart etc,
are not we trying to supress their views.
I am broken with this kind of news; a highest spiritual maestro is
undergoing a criminal charge.That is not though quite uncommon.We
have witnessed many issues of such kinds.Religius based things have
seen so much of bloodshed, and violence.Judiciary deals with the
common people, and we need not worry as to nothing is going to
happen with people of the highest kind.
Your concern for the traumatised experience of a convicted is worth
considering.Have you ever given a thought to hunderds of innocent
poor souls who are many times proved guilty and punished for none of
their mistakes ? Law can not take it own course.By then, it would
have generated so much of sympathiser, and preachers ? Who will/can
the punish the head of a family ?
I am baffled too. Where is the place of a spiritual elevated person
in politics.Politics is a mind boggling game, and its connection
with religion is again dangerous.Both the way, they sweep away mind.
Its not at all against any religion. Nothing to feel bad, or
overpossesive. Its my own view.
Hindu Seer V
13/11/04 13:11 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
At times I am sure, I can't beat our good friend
Vulcan!
He strikes back to AA:
I’m sorry AA babu, I don’t know nothing about Albigensian Massacre? Is that a criteria for pre-qualification by hindu preachers to be a smart guy? No wonder such preachers get arrested like a local goonda and I’m sure GOD will definitely come to rescue him.
Regards
JENA
Chinmaya replies to the earlier hurl:
No way ! I never think that way.
In the first click, I found the message did not appear in my inbox, where as the latter post had come. I felt, that might be the problem with yahoo, and sent that again with a new subject. By then, I had forgotten the title of first posting which I had copied from the net.
Hmm...Interpretation distorts the fact. Hope, I made it clear above.A post is a post, attack to the subject, not to the questioner. See,an innocent youngman is yelling with your agressive remark here
I only sent a link of a news.I have never tried to prove/disprove anybody. Thats it.
If it hurts your religious sentiment that intense, then I must apologise. If the sentiments are so deep rooted in us, we must put a restriction to this kind of posting.Personally, I think, what is the role of a spiritual guru in politics, why at all the seeker of highest kind of truth has to have nexus with Jayalalitha/karunanidhi ?
Its a question in common, the validity of religion and religious guru for a common mass ? We do not know, who is right/wrong ? The intensity with which we believe/pray to GOD,hope, Vulcano bhai, or Saswat are no exceptions to that. Despite of that, they have a concern for mass, and they are trying to adress that.And, we must not be that intolerant to their views.
Nobody can listen a word against relgion/relgious Guru, thats where our weaknesses lie.
Law will take it own course.
Rest, I am in full agreement with your points.
With Regards !
He strikes back to AA:
>>> I hope smart guys like Chinmay, Saswat, Vulcan etc know what it (Albigensian Massacre) was.
I’m sorry AA babu, I don’t know nothing about Albigensian Massacre? Is that a criteria for pre-qualification by hindu preachers to be a smart guy? No wonder such preachers get arrested like a local goonda and I’m sure GOD will definitely come to rescue him.
Regards
JENA
Chinmaya replies to the earlier hurl:
No way ! I never think that way.
In the first click, I found the message did not appear in my inbox, where as the latter post had come. I felt, that might be the problem with yahoo, and sent that again with a new subject. By then, I had forgotten the title of first posting which I had copied from the net.
Hmm...Interpretation distorts the fact. Hope, I made it clear above.A post is a post, attack to the subject, not to the questioner. See,an innocent youngman is yelling with your agressive remark here
I only sent a link of a news.I have never tried to prove/disprove anybody. Thats it.
If it hurts your religious sentiment that intense, then I must apologise. If the sentiments are so deep rooted in us, we must put a restriction to this kind of posting.Personally, I think, what is the role of a spiritual guru in politics, why at all the seeker of highest kind of truth has to have nexus with Jayalalitha/karunanidhi ?
Its a question in common, the validity of religion and religious guru for a common mass ? We do not know, who is right/wrong ? The intensity with which we believe/pray to GOD,hope, Vulcano bhai, or Saswat are no exceptions to that. Despite of that, they have a concern for mass, and they are trying to adress that.And, we must not be that intolerant to their views.
Nobody can listen a word against relgion/relgious Guru, thats where our weaknesses lie.
Law will take it own course.
Rest, I am in full agreement with your points.
With Regards !
Hindu Seer III
12/11/04 11:49 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
Immediate replies from the right direction:
I am sure the news was not a delightful one for this brother who mailed me this one. Of course, speaking for me, which other news could be the bigger ray of hope in post-British India?
Calm down , Saswat brother. World is not so white as someone tells you and nor it is dark as you think. There are shades and also light. Please do care to take a look. Conclusion is a step by step process !
I am sure the news was not a delightful one for this brother who mailed me this one. Of course, speaking for me, which other news could be the bigger ray of hope in post-British India?
Hindu Seer II
12/11/04 10:48 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
I thank Chinmaya for bringing the news to the group.
Since the group always revels in religious
discourses, it was the right platform, even if it was
of radically different taste this time. Bitter?
My letter:
I am not surprised! Not at all--
Remember how "Satya Sai Baba" fled the police several times and was accused of
child sexual abuses....
But he is still in the seat of esteem because of the irony that the judiciary
also comprises folks who legitimize these frauds' statuses.
And when Kavoor in his "Begone Godmen" challenged the spiritual gurus of the
world, none of them came forward to prove themselves.
Shame that we have to wait for the legal systems to take action....
and in the meantime these Con-men use the most fundamental concept to hypnotize
the masses: religion and god! And we innocents gulp down the sermons and start
preaching them as well and engage in advocating their languages and spreading
messages. Instead of locating the issues that concern the hungry and the
homeless, we practice the luxury of religious discourses....
Even a radical like Malcolm X paid for it too! By the time he discovered how the
religious were detached from the realities, he was swiftly eliminated by the
god-loving creatures. Little wonder we care to bother if the gurus practice what
they preach...
anyway, with such 'breaking news', its always better late than never...
thanks, Chinmaya,
Saswat
My letter:
I am not surprised! Not at all--
Remember how "Satya Sai Baba" fled the police several times and was accused of
child sexual abuses....
But he is still in the seat of esteem because of the irony that the judiciary
also comprises folks who legitimize these frauds' statuses.
And when Kavoor in his "Begone Godmen" challenged the spiritual gurus of the
world, none of them came forward to prove themselves.
Shame that we have to wait for the legal systems to take action....
and in the meantime these Con-men use the most fundamental concept to hypnotize
the masses: religion and god! And we innocents gulp down the sermons and start
preaching them as well and engage in advocating their languages and spreading
messages. Instead of locating the issues that concern the hungry and the
homeless, we practice the luxury of religious discourses....
Even a radical like Malcolm X paid for it too! By the time he discovered how the
religious were detached from the realities, he was swiftly eliminated by the
god-loving creatures. Little wonder we care to bother if the gurus practice what
they preach...
anyway, with such 'breaking news', its always better late than never...
thanks, Chinmaya,
Saswat
Hindu Seer I
12/11/04 07:07 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
Election, huh?
The party’s over. The cola war went well. All of them
were proved wrong, especially those who thought I
wont show interest in the polls since I dont have a
stake!
Look who won the bet. In the god’s country, the devil is still fighting.
Of course I stayed awake the whole WHOLE night. Despite the fact that I had three classes to attend the next morning! My Professor pardoned the class and we did not have to make presentation. But boy! were everyone sad!
All kinds of exclamations and the university folks were mourning the arrival of the dreaded.
I thought I will write what I felt. To show solidarity with the good human beings. And then thought, being good was not going to be enough. One needed to be effective as well. And we could not mourn forever. We got to fight back as well. Not just the ‘others’ but our self too. Here is what I thought ....
The cola war is over!
I know we should be sorry. We did all that we could. And we still lost.
But hey, who is this “us”?
Some of us most certainly accepted the Pepsi on the campus. Even drank Aquafina and ate Lays because Pepsi was our choice. Of course all that’s Pepsi need not suck. But what sucked was why Pepsi did not make us win even when we did not allow Coke to enter the Stamp Student Union?
And why we feel lost still.
Was it because we sided with Pepsi over Coke and thought it was important that we support one over the other?
And what about those of us who thought at least Coke was red in color and was looking better than the blue Pepsi? And those of us who thought there were actually some independent health drinks available in market that were better, in content, even if not in taste? And have we counted those of us who thought all those drinks were anyway available in the markets because they tolerated each other on purpose and thrived because of their mutual agreed terms of the system and hence we did not have to drink any of them?
So, come to think of it, who is this “us” that we think we represent? And why should everybody be sorry about this?
Did we miss the bus if we thought that either Pepsi or Coke could do the job. And thought we did not have to look at the economics of the soft-drink industry to assess if they were legitimizing profits on behalf of our names? Or that they were simply unhealthy, made us fat and made us less energetic to fight?
Now we have coke reigning over the country. But not in the University of Maryland campus still. Because we wont give up. We will still play by the rules. Accept the contract and extend the contract. And fight Pepsi over Coke.
And we think we will win!
Think again!
Have we struggled enough? Well, first of all, no victory is possible without the required amount of struggle. And we have not struggled enough. We enjoyed the popcorn in air-conditioned theatres and watched Michael Moore making fun of Arabs and we assumed we had won the war. We let some publishers make huge money by fictionalizing Bush to a toon character and arranged the books neatly on the coffee table, and we thought we had won the war. We sponsored the Disinformation series by watching Outfoxed time and again to watch an obvious liar called O’Reilly and thought we now knew the truth and hence we had won the war.
We thought by defeating Bush, we will have won the war. Well, that’s what Bush also thought. By defeating Saddam, he thought he would win the war. And we did not still learn from such an assumption even from borrowed experience.
Its not Bush who is important. He is just someone people voted to power. In his place it could be anyone else. Because the post of the president is sacred and upheld. And in a certain style of democratic thought, its meant to be permanent.
Its not one person holding office who deserves such importance we confer. It’s merely a public office one holds just as anyone holds an office at a public university or one who recycles the garbage.
We have not won the war. Because there is none. In this country there is poverty. Poverty of public knowledge. Knowledge about the homeless, the uneducated, the unemployed and the marginal groups. What we need is not a reactionary war, what we need is an affirmative action to ensure that all of us at least know of the issues. The issue, that we all matter. That all of us, despite our nationalities, sexual orientations, economic classes, religions and perceived security threats, matter. That there is not a red state and a blue state. Just like we don’t need to fight with Pepsi or the Coke. This is just one country of misinformed public. A public which is not ignorant, but one which is controlled.
No war against Bush will ever work. It’s not his fault that he got elected. People deserve the kind of government they elect. And its not people’s fault if they genuinely thought that theirs is the only God’s land and that God has indeed said xy and z.
Its our fault, that we have not been able to reach out to each and everyone in this country. If there were half of people in this country who genuinely believe in the blue, they need to go and interact with at least one more red each and discuss issues. One person talking to one person will make two thirds know of the issues and be able to distinguish them from non-issues.
That is what we need to do. To talk of issues. To make a movement. To support the oppressed people and rise against the oppressors. Bush was voted to power by the poor, unemployed people who still think he is a supreme patriot (sic!). Underestimating it would call for doom. We have to respect the decision made by the people and then reach out to them to discuss issues which are important and find ways to solve them. Party-bashing is a silly game. Issue-raising is the call of the day.
Enough of the two parties. And their proclaimed representatives. People need to know why all this farce if both Pepsi and Coke do the same stuff. Both the drinks are already available in the grocery shops. They don’t walk out of the refrigerators to talk to people. Instead people go and spend on them.
Lets stop being consumers. And lets stop being the fans. Lets stop being feeling sorry.
We gotta know the power is in the people. Not in those that are meant to serve them.
Look who won the bet. In the god’s country, the devil is still fighting.
Of course I stayed awake the whole WHOLE night. Despite the fact that I had three classes to attend the next morning! My Professor pardoned the class and we did not have to make presentation. But boy! were everyone sad!
All kinds of exclamations and the university folks were mourning the arrival of the dreaded.
I thought I will write what I felt. To show solidarity with the good human beings. And then thought, being good was not going to be enough. One needed to be effective as well. And we could not mourn forever. We got to fight back as well. Not just the ‘others’ but our self too. Here is what I thought ....
The cola war is over!
I know we should be sorry. We did all that we could. And we still lost.
But hey, who is this “us”?
Some of us most certainly accepted the Pepsi on the campus. Even drank Aquafina and ate Lays because Pepsi was our choice. Of course all that’s Pepsi need not suck. But what sucked was why Pepsi did not make us win even when we did not allow Coke to enter the Stamp Student Union?
And why we feel lost still.
Was it because we sided with Pepsi over Coke and thought it was important that we support one over the other?
And what about those of us who thought at least Coke was red in color and was looking better than the blue Pepsi? And those of us who thought there were actually some independent health drinks available in market that were better, in content, even if not in taste? And have we counted those of us who thought all those drinks were anyway available in the markets because they tolerated each other on purpose and thrived because of their mutual agreed terms of the system and hence we did not have to drink any of them?
So, come to think of it, who is this “us” that we think we represent? And why should everybody be sorry about this?
Did we miss the bus if we thought that either Pepsi or Coke could do the job. And thought we did not have to look at the economics of the soft-drink industry to assess if they were legitimizing profits on behalf of our names? Or that they were simply unhealthy, made us fat and made us less energetic to fight?
Now we have coke reigning over the country. But not in the University of Maryland campus still. Because we wont give up. We will still play by the rules. Accept the contract and extend the contract. And fight Pepsi over Coke.
And we think we will win!
Think again!
Have we struggled enough? Well, first of all, no victory is possible without the required amount of struggle. And we have not struggled enough. We enjoyed the popcorn in air-conditioned theatres and watched Michael Moore making fun of Arabs and we assumed we had won the war. We let some publishers make huge money by fictionalizing Bush to a toon character and arranged the books neatly on the coffee table, and we thought we had won the war. We sponsored the Disinformation series by watching Outfoxed time and again to watch an obvious liar called O’Reilly and thought we now knew the truth and hence we had won the war.
We thought by defeating Bush, we will have won the war. Well, that’s what Bush also thought. By defeating Saddam, he thought he would win the war. And we did not still learn from such an assumption even from borrowed experience.
Its not Bush who is important. He is just someone people voted to power. In his place it could be anyone else. Because the post of the president is sacred and upheld. And in a certain style of democratic thought, its meant to be permanent.
Its not one person holding office who deserves such importance we confer. It’s merely a public office one holds just as anyone holds an office at a public university or one who recycles the garbage.
We have not won the war. Because there is none. In this country there is poverty. Poverty of public knowledge. Knowledge about the homeless, the uneducated, the unemployed and the marginal groups. What we need is not a reactionary war, what we need is an affirmative action to ensure that all of us at least know of the issues. The issue, that we all matter. That all of us, despite our nationalities, sexual orientations, economic classes, religions and perceived security threats, matter. That there is not a red state and a blue state. Just like we don’t need to fight with Pepsi or the Coke. This is just one country of misinformed public. A public which is not ignorant, but one which is controlled.
No war against Bush will ever work. It’s not his fault that he got elected. People deserve the kind of government they elect. And its not people’s fault if they genuinely thought that theirs is the only God’s land and that God has indeed said xy and z.
Its our fault, that we have not been able to reach out to each and everyone in this country. If there were half of people in this country who genuinely believe in the blue, they need to go and interact with at least one more red each and discuss issues. One person talking to one person will make two thirds know of the issues and be able to distinguish them from non-issues.
That is what we need to do. To talk of issues. To make a movement. To support the oppressed people and rise against the oppressors. Bush was voted to power by the poor, unemployed people who still think he is a supreme patriot (sic!). Underestimating it would call for doom. We have to respect the decision made by the people and then reach out to them to discuss issues which are important and find ways to solve them. Party-bashing is a silly game. Issue-raising is the call of the day.
Enough of the two parties. And their proclaimed representatives. People need to know why all this farce if both Pepsi and Coke do the same stuff. Both the drinks are already available in the grocery shops. They don’t walk out of the refrigerators to talk to people. Instead people go and spend on them.
Lets stop being consumers. And lets stop being the fans. Lets stop being feeling sorry.
We gotta know the power is in the people. Not in those that are meant to serve them.
Arrest of Sankaracharya : This Movement is Progress
The arrest of Sankaracharya of Kanchi came as a big
surprise to most people. Of course one quarter asked
if anyone would dare arrest Pope if he were alleged
to have a hand in murder!
Hindus, I hear, are followers of extremely kind and accommodating religion. Well over a hundred Americans have already informed this to me. Of course they dont consider my being born in a family of Hindus make me Hindu. They know for sure, I dont agree we have to be part of any religion to be called human.
ut incidentally, I explain them back, that in India, being born makes all the difference. As our friend Vulcan Jena (in a recent posting at yahoogroup) made an excellent point recently, which I quote:
"What Manu did five thousand years ago, preachers of GOD still trying to continue & maintain it. Manu made Hindu society into four classes. There is no mobility. You are born a brahmin, that is the only way to be a brahmin. And that is the highest society, the topmost class. Then number two is the warriors, the kings: the Khyatriyas. But you are born in that caste, it is not a question that you can move. Then third is the class of the vaishyas, the business people; you are born in it. And the fourth is the sudras, the untouchables. All are born into their caste. That’s why, until Christianity started converting so many Hindus, particularly the sudras, who were ready, very willing to become Christians, because at least they would be touchable. Amongst Hindus, sudras are untouchable, and there is no way to get out of the structure.For your whole life you have to remain the same as your forefathers remained for five thousand years. For five thousand years there has been a stratified society. Hindus were not a converting religion, because the great question was, if you convert somebody, in what class are you going to put the person? Brahmins won’t allow you, and you would not like to be put with the sudras, the untouchables."
Well, not to say that one is better than the others. And if Pope can indeed not get arrested even after a murder case against him, then its a shame indeed. If not, lets investigate further and see why we have not made so many arrests so far.
But then people like you and me get arrested on daily basis. Laws like TADA or POTA or Patriot Act are already in place. See what they did in the post-riot Bombay or Gujarat or the fifty years of Kashmir.
Asian Age in 1999 came out with a flyer story on how Indian army officers raided the house of a Kashmiri family and killed their dog. Reason: it was barking. And so the conclusion was simple: A dog that barks at Hindu army must be a pakistani dog!
India never had so much conflict with any other land on this planet as poor (economically at least) Pakistan because of religious differences. And common people and domestic dogs have been paying the prices. Whereas the ones like religious ‘seers’ and ‘imams’ (he has now come forward to support the sankaracharya...who knows the Muslim preacher might be having a pandora’s box too) call the shots...
Hindus, I hear, are followers of extremely kind and accommodating religion. Well over a hundred Americans have already informed this to me. Of course they dont consider my being born in a family of Hindus make me Hindu. They know for sure, I dont agree we have to be part of any religion to be called human.
ut incidentally, I explain them back, that in India, being born makes all the difference. As our friend Vulcan Jena (in a recent posting at yahoogroup) made an excellent point recently, which I quote:
"What Manu did five thousand years ago, preachers of GOD still trying to continue & maintain it. Manu made Hindu society into four classes. There is no mobility. You are born a brahmin, that is the only way to be a brahmin. And that is the highest society, the topmost class. Then number two is the warriors, the kings: the Khyatriyas. But you are born in that caste, it is not a question that you can move. Then third is the class of the vaishyas, the business people; you are born in it. And the fourth is the sudras, the untouchables. All are born into their caste. That’s why, until Christianity started converting so many Hindus, particularly the sudras, who were ready, very willing to become Christians, because at least they would be touchable. Amongst Hindus, sudras are untouchable, and there is no way to get out of the structure.For your whole life you have to remain the same as your forefathers remained for five thousand years. For five thousand years there has been a stratified society. Hindus were not a converting religion, because the great question was, if you convert somebody, in what class are you going to put the person? Brahmins won’t allow you, and you would not like to be put with the sudras, the untouchables."
Well, not to say that one is better than the others. And if Pope can indeed not get arrested even after a murder case against him, then its a shame indeed. If not, lets investigate further and see why we have not made so many arrests so far.
But then people like you and me get arrested on daily basis. Laws like TADA or POTA or Patriot Act are already in place. See what they did in the post-riot Bombay or Gujarat or the fifty years of Kashmir.
Asian Age in 1999 came out with a flyer story on how Indian army officers raided the house of a Kashmiri family and killed their dog. Reason: it was barking. And so the conclusion was simple: A dog that barks at Hindu army must be a pakistani dog!
India never had so much conflict with any other land on this planet as poor (economically at least) Pakistan because of religious differences. And common people and domestic dogs have been paying the prices. Whereas the ones like religious ‘seers’ and ‘imams’ (he has now come forward to support the sankaracharya...who knows the Muslim preacher might be having a pandora’s box too) call the shots...
Critical Lives: Malcolm X
09/11/04 23:41 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Reference
Malcolm X lives on. And the legands are told over
again. This one is the newest.
Lorenzo Thomas reviews the book on Malcolm X--Critical Lives: Malcolm X -- by Kofi Natambu (Indianapolis: Alpha Books)
The short but astonishingly eventful life of Malcolm X—to some, more properly and
reverently, El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz—has, in the years since his assassination at the
lectern in Harlem’s Audubon Ballroom, achieved mythic proportions. His Autobiography
is a classic American story that ranks with Benjamin Franklin’s and Booker T.
Washington’s; Spike Lee produced an epic movie based on that life; the Postal Service
has commemorated it with a stamp; and people are willing to bid hundreds of thousands
of dollars to purchase his memorabilia.
Read More...
Lorenzo Thomas reviews the book on Malcolm X--Critical Lives: Malcolm X -- by Kofi Natambu (Indianapolis: Alpha Books)
The short but astonishingly eventful life of Malcolm X—to some, more properly and
reverently, El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz—has, in the years since his assassination at the
lectern in Harlem’s Audubon Ballroom, achieved mythic proportions. His Autobiography
is a classic American story that ranks with Benjamin Franklin’s and Booker T.
Washington’s; Spike Lee produced an epic movie based on that life; the Postal Service
has commemorated it with a stamp; and people are willing to bid hundreds of thousands
of dollars to purchase his memorabilia.
Read More...
Or religious discourse II
08/11/04 10:27 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Memories
Another right brother pitches in:
Our friend Chinmaya replies:
I must apologize before going to write a further word.I am shocked. I have never bothered of your profession, and how do you deal with your students.I have never focussed anything regarding indian/USA education system,secrets codes in the cut throats comptt to publish papers, and the expected interaction between faculties and students in either of the countries.Thats all out of context here.I know,I can not reach to your level of understanding, in terms of studying physical, metaphysical phenomena.Excuse me,and my opinions as the outbrusts of an insane towards religion. Playing with words is not my cup of tea either, and where the winning of word war will lead me to ? .Neither me, Saswat, subhendu bhai was attacking the view points baselessly, rather they were sharing it in their own way owing to their own understandings of matters.
I sincerely feel, your post is never devoided of ratioanlity and a proper sequence ,and you have never digressed of the main topic. All I opined, whoever is speaking of religion must be very concise and focussed with out aggrandsizement of the facts and figures, and fooling around the people. And, you mean the same anyway.The only difference is your acceptance of everything on religious matter thinking it might be conatining some worth, whereas I feel things, unless confirmed/properly understood must not be reproduced.That creates lots of misunderstanding/chaos, and another fraction of people take undue adavantage of it.
One must trust the "fundamental information" that one is served,
and acquire some knowledge thereupon before raising any question.
For example, if a child revolts against why the alphabet "A" is
written the way it is and why not otherwise, and sticks to not
believing the current form of "A", that child can never learn the
language as long as he keeps his revolt alive! Thus, the primary
thing is a "faith". As far as religion or spirituality are
concerned, Chinmaya or Saswat do not have that faith - at least that
is my reading of them! I know they must have trusted the initial
concepts in physics and chemistry before raising any question in
their minds. Only that they follow a different option while talking
religion and spirituality.
__
Our friend Chinmaya replies:
I must apologize before going to write a further word.I am shocked. I have never bothered of your profession, and how do you deal with your students.I have never focussed anything regarding indian/USA education system,secrets codes in the cut throats comptt to publish papers, and the expected interaction between faculties and students in either of the countries.Thats all out of context here.I know,I can not reach to your level of understanding, in terms of studying physical, metaphysical phenomena.Excuse me,and my opinions as the outbrusts of an insane towards religion. Playing with words is not my cup of tea either, and where the winning of word war will lead me to ? .Neither me, Saswat, subhendu bhai was attacking the view points baselessly, rather they were sharing it in their own way owing to their own understandings of matters.
I sincerely feel, your post is never devoided of ratioanlity and a proper sequence ,and you have never digressed of the main topic. All I opined, whoever is speaking of religion must be very concise and focussed with out aggrandsizement of the facts and figures, and fooling around the people. And, you mean the same anyway.The only difference is your acceptance of everything on religious matter thinking it might be conatining some worth, whereas I feel things, unless confirmed/properly understood must not be reproduced.That creates lots of misunderstanding/chaos, and another fraction of people take undue adavantage of it.
Of religious discourses
07/11/04 12:15 Filed by Saswat Pattanayak in:
Memories
In the group, a brother advocates something like the
following:
Ashrujit, my friend replies:
If Saswat and Chinmaya's views are considered arrogant and a mindset
without the desire to learn, then may be we can brand "believers"
views are religious fanatics.
Why do we always find the people on the other side bad? I think
Chinmaya, Saswat and all others who are asking the questions are
simply because "they want to learn". If they had an air of arrogance
or were not willing to learn anything they would be only ridiculed
here and there and stayed away from any serious discussion, arguments.
___
I am against the notion that those
> who know should keep teaching despite being challenged and
> ridiculed. Chinmaya or Saswat may feel hurt; but all questions
> raised by them symbolise a level of arrogance and challenge. This is
> not a right frame of mind to learn - as far as I have practised and
> understood. My opinion on Chinmaya or Saswat is my personal, and I
> am not bound to give any explanation. You are free to call me a
> hypocrite or any term that you think suits me. SB may also
> call me an "OSAite" (he recently termed A's views typical OSA-
> type). I dont mind.
Ashrujit, my friend replies:
If Saswat and Chinmaya's views are considered arrogant and a mindset
without the desire to learn, then may be we can brand "believers"
views are religious fanatics.
Why do we always find the people on the other side bad? I think
Chinmaya, Saswat and all others who are asking the questions are
simply because "they want to learn". If they had an air of arrogance
or were not willing to learn anything they would be only ridiculed
here and there and stayed away from any serious discussion, arguments.
___
Of the non-issues
In respect to a lively group discussion on Indian
mythological characters, I just could not resist
airing how gross it was:
Its time to introspect once again. Time to question the canons that established and sustained the ruling classes, via the use of extremely discriminatory organized religions of the world (Hinduism is one of the largest, of course).
A religion having its exclusive biases, fanatic repercussions, and redundant lessons has become the centerstage of our discussions.
Religions provide all the answers, I guess, from what we are discussing. Just wondering if we are asking the right questions?
For a change, we have another four years of George Bush coming to power. How will Orissa be affected?
regards,
Saswat
And for a quoter-reversal: in context, from Krishna to Marx
'Philosophers have only interpreted the world. its time to change it..."
Its time to introspect once again. Time to question the canons that established and sustained the ruling classes, via the use of extremely discriminatory organized religions of the world (Hinduism is one of the largest, of course).
A religion having its exclusive biases, fanatic repercussions, and redundant lessons has become the centerstage of our discussions.
Religions provide all the answers, I guess, from what we are discussing. Just wondering if we are asking the right questions?
For a change, we have another four years of George Bush coming to power. How will Orissa be affected?
regards,
Saswat
And for a quoter-reversal: in context, from Krishna to Marx
'Philosophers have only interpreted the world. its time to change it..."
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